[Nefarious Shenanigans]

So fellas (and the few ladies too of course, you are included when I say fellas by the way, for future reference)

 

11 hours on, 13 hours off for flower

 

I have read many things over much time, seen breeders mentioning that certain traits don't even show up under 12/12 (DJ Short and others), seen some furious debate online over it too

 

So do any of you guys run it? the whole flower cycle or just the second half of flower?

 

Faster finish times? Smaller yields? Faster to flip? I read all kinds of conflicting shit... Do you actually see anything special apart from saving some 8% leccy? which obviously is something pretty decent if you use a lot of wattage, but what cosmetic effects do you experience from this cycle, if any please guys, and any other notable differences?

 

appreciate your opinions

 

cheers

 

 

[Horse Badorties]

I started running 11/13, several years ago, after I saw an interview with DJ Short. He was asked what's the best tip he could give to indoor growers, for obviously it saves on the power bill, lamps and other equipment last longer, and it helps a little with heat... but his main point was that it makes plants express more phenos, and like you said, ones you'd never see under 12/12.

 

TBH, I don't know about the pheno part In my grows, when I pop a bunch of seeds, it seems to depend on the strain, and how much it was worked, as to if there's a lot of phenos. But that said, I do think I see more slight differences in plants of the same phenos (or seemingly the same). Just subtle variations, if that makes sense. Slightly different structures, smells, bud sizes and shapes, stuff like that. If I was a breeder, other than just a puffer, it would probably be a pretty handy tool  

 

I'm a tight git, though, so the power savings are enough for me

[Dekay]

I strangely run 11.5 light and 12.5 dark, I did have a reason but fuck me cant remember what it was lol A mate tried lesser and lesser towards end and ruined a crop though because it finished quicker than he expected and he overcooked them some what.

[Trump]

Good topic of discussion. Depends entirely on the strain for me. For indoor bred I stick to 12/12 as you can bet your bottom dollar thats what they were bred under but following spirtual advice for long flowering unruly sativas I will very gradually knock the hours down from 18. With some of the wild sativas spirit man said you can have all sorts of problems, mega stretching, not flowering right, hermie, additional stress, flowering forever, all sorts, if you slack on 12/12. Even going straight to 12/12 from 18/6 can cause big issues. I tried to taper from 18, but it's tricky enough guessing the stretch on these type of genes let alone when you are starting to flower now, but you will be at 12/12 in a few weeks time. There's a reason (a good few actually lol) these wild beasties are rarely seen. As I say entirely strain dependant. I think what DJ short is saying holds some truth in best case scenario but is a bit silly in practice. Plants will undoubtedly express themselves differently under 11/13, the environment has changed so you will see different phenotypic response, but the real question is that necessarily a good thing? Are the expressions useful or desirable, plus, will they even show themselves when regular folk flower the creations out at 12/12? Not really as intended, so as clever as it seems, he's kind of breeding in the dark with no real idea of how his genetics will perform on 12/12. For him it's great, for the people who buy his produce, not so much (unless they go 11/13 too). It's a bit like (but not as extreme) breeding for outdoor, indoor. It just doesn't really work in practice as the environments are so wildly different the expressions of the genes are wildly different too. Well, it works, it's just not all that sensible or logical. You make hit on something that works but it'll be more down to fluke than anything else. IMO it's best to breed in the conditions you want them to be grown in, and grow in the conditions they were bred in. Just my tuppence 

[Bandit 4freekin20]

I use 18/6 for veg and 10/14 for bloom every plant, every grow

 

I still get monster plants that grow crazy fast and colas the size of cricket bats on strains that like to grow big buds. A long time ago I used 24/7 for veg and 12/12 for bloom and since changing have not noticed any decline of anything except for the leccy bill and my lights last longer

 

I never read or saw any article from anybody. Just got tired of high bills and hot rooms so I tried it out. Dropped 15 minutes at a time on an experimental grow and afterwards concluded 12/12 was not mandatory but a mere suggestion. Have'nt run 12/12 since

Edited by lefty, 27 November 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Nefarious Shenanigans]

thank you all for your replies, it is appreciated. You all make some very valid points...

 

I see there is disagreement - to be expected I guess

 

this is looking like it is one of those gotta just kinda do it for yourself and see how it works out type deals, with some known cuts so you can see what, if any, changes may occur

 

might even just give them the 11/13 for the second half of flower in the room I have going currently and see where we end up, I know everything in there currently from before too so I could gauge any difference fairly well hopefully. Might even do 10/14 at some point and give that a try for a whole flower cycle on a future grow. If I could make that work equally well then that would sure be a neat trick eh

 

for me it is an issue of wanting to do things with more space and trying to shave and streamline everything I can to get another space without going bananas with wattage. that got me looking into it in the first place but then I came across all this other stuff too about the method, remembered seeing that emerald cup video of DJ saying that sorta stuff, and thought I better put it to the TGC panel to get some personal insight

 

thanks very much once again for all your input fellas and by all means if there is anyone else wanting to still throw in their two cents please go right ahead, the more points of view the better

 

cheers

[Bandit 4freekin20]

thank you all for your replies, it is appreciated. You all make some very valid points...

 

I see there is disagreement - to be expected I guess

 

this is looking like it is one of those gotta just kinda do it for yourself and see how it works out type deals, with some known cuts so you can see what, if any, changes may occur

 

might even just give them the 11/13 for the second half of flower in the room I have going currently and see where we end up, I know everything in there currently from before too so I could gauge any difference fairly well hopefully. Might even do 10/14 at some point and give that a try for a whole flower cycle on a future grow. If I could make that work equally well then that would sure be a neat trick eh

 

for me it is an issue of wanting to do things with more space and trying to shave and streamline everything I can to get another space without going bananas with wattage. that got me looking into it in the first place but then I came across all this other stuff too about the method, remembered seeing that emerald cup video of DJ saying that sorta stuff, and thought I better put it to the TGC panel to get some personal insight

 

thanks very much once again for all your input fellas and by all means if there is anyone else wanting to still throw in their two cents please go right ahead, the more points of view the better

 

cheers

 

I've gotten away from experiments in the last six months or so, finally closing in on exactly how I want my room and gardens to grow with what equipment, how to best use that equipment, and what makes me comfortable with all variables there are to growing and smoking what I grow etc.

 

I would have never got to this point without those experiments so if there was one thing I could pass to others that are seeking that perfect grow for themselves, I must say experiment and if possible build a space separate from everything else you have going for those experiments.

 

Start growing by the book with known practices that ensure success and then build on that with things you may have to do or not have to do in the experimental space.

 

My old 3'x3' (1m x1m) experiment space taught me more than anything I've read from any book or articles.

Everything from what a light can really do on it's own without help to light cycles to how long a DWC plant could live in water without aeration were done in that space, along with many other experiments just to see what happens.

 

Not that what another grower or author had posted was wrong, I simply have to see for myself..what will and will not work for me.

 

So these days on topics like this or that DWC plant in dead water I can say another grower may need lights running 12/12 and fully aerated water to be successful. But I can get away with 10/14 and a plant sitting in dead water for 3 weeks before it shows negative effects

Neither of us are wrong. It's just that one thing that may cause failure for one could result in success for another. It's also helped me find out what works and what performs because the gap between working and performing at a high level is as wide as the Atlantic ocean.

 

So that leads to those fiery debates which TBH, I ignore many of them now. People will argue this or that, never realize they're both right, and be unwilling to accept something that failed for one worked quite well for another.

 

I mean shit man...If I bought into some things I've read I'd be convinced my lights suck balls and cannot even grow algae, my water is a poisonous herbicide, my hydro methods are more like managing a swamp than they are hydroponics, and my aerocloner is the cause for all things terrible in life.

 

Regarding light cycles...I'm more into the quality of light than the quantity of light and it's based 100% off my experiments, indoors and out.

Like the Sun may be up for about 12 hours a day but a ganja plant under the Sun for 12 hours at my longitude/latitude will get beat down and stressed. Ganja here does much better with about 8 hours of full direct Sun starting in the morning then tapering off into darkness the latter part of the day.

 

So I take that and apply it indoors. Use a very high quality light that can almost match the Sun in spectra and intensity. The result will be the light and plant working better together in efficiency and typically light on time can be reduced.

 

But that may not work with a lesser quality of light such as CFL which if I was a CFL grower I would run them 24/7 in veg and 12/12 in bloom. Then the quantity of light needs to be increased to make up for the lack of quality light.

 

[Nefarious Shenanigans]

thanks for elaborating @lefty

 

I agree entirely that books are great for the foundational stuff, but as you know I ain't afraid to experiment with things either, and reckon more people should. Most brilliant discoveries happen to me by accident first and then are kinda re-implemented on purpose if I am honest. My opinions are subject to change more as I learn these days; likely you will remember an argument we had about LEC a good while ago, and I admit I was a naysayer, as on paper the LEC doesn't inspire confidence. But I have learned to be more flexible to the real life application of some things rather than just the science or how the data looks... it's obviously something that works pretty well in the flesh; too many good results to ignore. I was a LED naysayer too once upon a time till I realised I was obviously being an idiot

 

Your whole idea of another space independent from the rest is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned more space before. Trying out some simple coco and synthetic shenanigans at the minute (going fairly well despite me), and that space will become a DIY LEC or hybrid fixture test space hopefully in the near future, so I don't mess with the real cycle with my experimentation. if it goes well there I will run my main cycles with whatever hybrid I come up with in the end

 

Quality of light is a very big deal... I don't even wanna start talking about it or I will ramble on for a really long time and put everyone who comes by to sleep, perhaps permanently haha

 

nice one

[Bandit 4freekin20]

thanks for elaborating @lefty

 

I agree entirely that books are great for the foundational stuff, but as you know I ain't afraid to experiment with things either, and reckon more people should. Most brilliant discoveries happen to me by accident first and then are kinda re-implemented on purpose if I am honest. My opinions are subject to change more as I learn these days; likely you will remember an argument we had about LEC a good while ago, and I admit I was a naysayer, as on paper the LEC doesn't inspire confidence. But I have learned to be more flexible to the real life application of some things rather than just the science or how the data looks... it's obviously something that works pretty well in the flesh; too many good results to ignore. I was a LED naysayer too once upon a time till I realised I was obviously being an idiot

 

Your whole idea of another space independent from the rest is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned more space before. Trying out some simple coco and synthetic shenanigans at the minute (going fairly well despite me), and that space will become a DIY LEC or hybrid fixture test space hopefully in the near future, so I don't mess with the real cycle with my experimentation. if it goes well there I will run my main cycles with whatever hybrid I come up with in the end

 

Quality of light is a very big deal... I don't even wanna start talking about it or I will ramble on for a really long time and put everyone who comes by to sleep, perhaps permanently haha

 

nice one

 

Haha I dont remember arguing with ya but I do remember a guy that attacked me pretty viscous back in the day over my posts about LEC. A commercial grower from Colorado that I thought may want to start measuring penises if it went further. Wanted me to go to Co to fight him and then enter a Cannabis Cup against him. That was weird.  Named rymed with Fig Fry

 

My experimental space is what made me go from HPS to LEC. I was very skeptical. Numbers just did'nt add up but I gave it a shot.

When ever I pit one light vs another I tend to stack the odds against the newcomer. For the LEC test I pitted the 315 vs 1000 watts of old style CMH & HPS inside a dual lamp Raptor hood.

 

The 1k grew a bigger garden but the 315 grew a better garden with a way better GPW rate.

I knew then I could cut my leccy bill by more than half by using two 315 compared to using the 1600 watts i had been using for my main space.

The performance most certainly changed my opinion about HPS really being the only true grow light on the market in 2011.

 

I knew my power cut would not be what could be done for every grower but it is rare to see somebody go from 600 HPS to 315LEC and then change back to the 600.

 

Next, almost inevitably an experimenter will fuck with even more shit like the light cycles, moving lights, side lights or whatever to trim even more off that bill and still get bumper crops. It's almost a game like fun challenge when ya get that efficiency bug. Alf has it like crazy with his 100 watt LED puzzle lights hahaha

 

Experimenting or growers creep seems to never stop for me. I'm still in search of the perfect ganja trellis and coming to terms that it may be a combo of three different things for my room. Just the type of info I'll never find in any book
 

[THC F13ND]

I generally run 11/13 or 10/14 in flower depending on the plants, the biggest variation for me is my veg hours. Some landrace sats in my collection such as the Colombians will happily veg on 13/11 without a trace of bud, whereas an old double afghan hybrid I have will flower even at 18/6, 20/4 is best to avoid premature flowering.

That said, the entire reason I tried lowering light-hours in the first place was a Cambodian landrace a pal brought back from his travels; it would only give the odd wispy bit of fluff on 12/12, dropped an hour and it was game on, ~14 weeks later they were towering columns of fine Asian cannabis

ATB